How do they know? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Lord Cooper · Apr 18, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

dont forget.. inocent untill proven guilty

ha you tell that to traffic wardens in england.. if they slap a parking ticket on you, you have to appeal against it and prove to them you werent illegally parked. as far as they are concerned you're already guilty! they are all scumbags! they been known to ticket ambulances on call outs. crashed vehicles and god knows what else.

sorry rant over

Akhilleus · Apr 18, 2006, 10:33 AM // 10:33

i think anet would be more absorbed with nailing the destributors though, than that bit of customer base that pays for stuff in the game.

Stealthy Trapper · Apr 18, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Still there is no grasp on reality. Imo only the absolute obvious ones get caught. I am not sure of what it costs to buy a gp in this game but an easy scenario is:

A-Net finds a account breaking the rules and bans the account. The banned one buys another account online, starts farming again and I am sure it doesn't take them long to build enough gold again to pay for the account.
Unless A-Net could find them the very second they start farming I hardly find it worth while trying to catch and ban accounts.

On the other hand A-Net bans the account because they know the banned one will buy another account and A-Net gets more royalties.

Who really knows. I think Lord Mahal said it best.WTF cares it is breaking the rules, don't do it, and you will never know how they catch someone.

Narutoscryed · Apr 18, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

You all are funny... Not one of you knows the truth, so you all just toss out bullshit ideas. Since nobody really knows, how about you all just stop talking about it. If you buy gold, you get banned... that simple... who cares how they find out.

^ angry troll....cant someone ban negative people like this?.. i mean isnt the forums a place for people to go and discuss all opinions and ideas?.. by your way of thinkin this site forum would be empty.

stop being angry and abusive to others opinions .. you make yourself look even more like a 13 year old prepubecent child that is angry at mommy and daddy for not getting him the POWER WHEELS he wanted so very badly. grow up. this site is about opinions so stop trolling please

ShadowStorm · Apr 18, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

If you're going to buy gold off Ebay, the trick is to launder the money, just like you'd do in real life. Buy like 7 different accounts, then have 1 of those accounts set up a deal with the ebayer. When the Ebayer drops the gold off, have the first account divvy the gold up between 5 of the other accounts. Then have those 5 other accounts clean the money by investing in game items that are worth large amounts, like black dyes, runes, etc. Next, have those 5 other accounts drop the items off in the 7th account. Then the 7th account will transfer the items back into money and slowly feed that money into your real account at like 5k at a time.

I doubt that A-Net could track that. You might get the first account banned, though.

J/K

Don't buy gold off Ebay. I just was reading these posts and this thought popped into my head. I had to share.

nova-exarch · Apr 18, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Funny... no one mentioned the phrase "Intellectual Property" yet.

Anyway...

All self righteousness aside I have a few thoughts/points:

1. We live (well, most of us do and the game is located) in a CAPITALIST societies and yet people love to try and take some moral high road on the concept of buying gold/items = cheating. That is just too funny.

Usually it's touted as some moral issue about how it isn't fair to those that don't want to spend money on in game stuff and would rather earn it.

To those people I ask:

What about people that have more free time? They can play more and that's not fair to those of us with jobs, kids, school, etc...

What about people that can afford to spend more money on better computers or multiple accounts? Are they cheating by having that advantage? Is it fair?

Some people actually have more money than they do available time. Or should I say their time is worth more to them than spending umpty hours in a game to be able to compete.

Other people have more time than they do money... (Funny how that works, maybe if they were more busy they would have money? That's a whole different rant though.)

If spending more money to get more out of a game with less time commitment is not fair then their should also be a maximum amount of time you can play in a day because that is also an unfair advantage.

(sarcasm) Wow, imagine that... life… unfair?!?! (/sarcasm)

2. The main reasons that game companies generally don’t like the buying and selling of in game items is because: A. they do not profit from these sales, and B. they are a customer service NIGHTMARE (so and so took my gold but didn’t give me an item, etc..).

There is no economic balance in their minds. As a business it’s all about the bottom line. They could give a poop less about the “economy” of guild wars unless it was responsible for them loosing customers. (That's actually kind of funny since gear is such an afterthought in this game anyway.)

There are games that do not take issue with the buying and selling of their items outside of the game. Ultima Online is a prime example of such a game. They’ve been around for ever and you can buy and sell anything you want in or out of the game. Their economy isn't shot to hell. It's still going fairly strong.

3. The “Intellectual Property” BS that game companies love to tout as their reason for not allowing out of game trades is such a load of bull. It’s like Microsoft saying they own any idea or concept ever created on a Microsoft product. Or how about Craftsman saying they own every house built with their tools? (Yeah I know that one is far fetched...)

The only reason the concept stands up at all is because they include it in their EULA’s. That and no one has ever challenged the validity of the concept Intellectual Property. They tie IProperty in with the fact that they want to protect their code and all the reverse engineering stuff and make it seem like a good idea that players have zero rights in regards to code they are creating. I'm sure there are a ton of programers out there that work for free right?

Well, people have actually tried to challenge it and had valid cases in support of the fact that it was their creativity that made the character that was under dispute. However, without the kind of money it takes to hire lawyers to combat the likes of Sony and their legal teams there was not much those individuals could do.

It’s also a rahter new concept legal wise so there is not a whole lot of precedence. As far as I know there is no other sort of online service that stores created items on a server and claims ownership rights to anything contained on the server. Especially when you consider it is server space that a person has paid for the use of.

So, in the end, what it boils down to is:

They can do ANYTHING they want to ANY account they choose with NO REASON what-so-ever. It’s on their server, and the server is their property, and any data residing on the server is treated as their property.

This may be a rather pessimistic view but… It’s best to just not get attached to any character or assume you have any say what so ever as to any aspect of the character or the way the game plays.

Of course you can always choose not to buy the game or any expansions, or to return it if it’s within that timeframe.

---

In response to the original topic…

In 5+ years of EQ I never met anyone that was banned for “normal” buying and selling items. I did meet people with accounts banned from buying and selling accounts though (those were usually discovered when issues arose).

It would be simple to create the database routines needed to note sums over X amount with nothing in return. I'm not blowing smoke out of my rear end or guessing at anything. As a computer science major I had to write code to do such things. Number wise the process would be simple.

There would still need to be human involvement because that small percentage of itemless trades that actually were legit would cause them to lose many customers (see the bit about the bottom line above). There are plenty of legitimate reasons… friends, guildies, people with multiple accounts transferring money to twink a new character with, etc…

The human involvement is what isn’t cost effective. That leads me to not believe most people that claim to have been banned for a one time buying of gold or anything like that. The effort to catch people combined with the loss of a customer… I tend to doubt they ban that many people at all (especially in relation to the number of gold auctions out there).

I have to agree with the person before that mentioned that there must have been extenuating circumstances (as in the person was being a jerk or breaking other rules or taking advantage of exploits, etc…)

---

Wow, that got a whole lot longer than I intended.

ophidian409 · Apr 18, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I just want to tell you guys transfering a large amount of gold to another account with nothing return doesn't casusing banning, otherwise those fragging crystaline cheaters in LA would have been banned AUTOMATICALLY and even if people report them they are not getting banned.

One likely condition for anet to ban ebayer is someone reports them with concrete evidence. For example you buy gold from ebayer and then you report him with screenshot then he must be banned.

tuperwho · Apr 18, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

What about Anet simply performing chat log checks on random huge gold transfers.

"Hey, I bought that money from you on E-bay... can you give it to me now?"

kinda a dead giveaway if you ask me

Haggard · Apr 18, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Yeah I would never sell my gold on ebay for the main reason that you have to give your IGN, and anet may well have spies looking on ebay etc. Plus its wrong, and I love my money too much to sell for $8/100k to some bozo.

ophidian409 · Apr 18, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

I don't think Anet would want to ban all the people who invlove in ebay, gold on ebay could raise interest of those who can't spend much time on the game. They don't actively look for ebayer, they just handle the report.

This is what I believe, if you want to know the banning mechanism behind, those gold seller could give you the answer, becasue they can tell you if their accounts was banned and what actions they has taken.

Miikka · Apr 18, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

sorry for going a bit off-topic here, but can someone quote the phrase in user agreement where it says buying gold/items with real life money is not allowed?

NathanS · Apr 18, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

In My Opinion

The reason they don't want people selling the money and/or items is because then it ruins the game for them and the people will not buy more accounts.

Example:
if you buy a new game and get the cheats for it the amount of time you will play it decreases. For some of us by quite a lot. So if they want the game to continue to sell and be talked about online and with friends then they must keep people from getting to many cheats ... ie ebay money or items.

Everquest and WOW want you to keep paying the monthly fee.

I think they would be smarter to allow it that way they could run the kids and people with too much money out of the game so we could enjoy playing with people who enjoy the game experience.

I am sorry to say to some that I do not want to BUY the greatest items I want to try and earn them. Just like in life you enjoy what you earn more. If I ever get to the point I am buying the MAX items without working hard to get the money then I will move on to the next game.

Just my 2 cents... I even refuse to play with someone who wants to powerlevel me. I left a guild because that is all they wanted to do.

I am also a family man and wish there was a way to have a clean server to be on... as I let my young kids play too. On their OWN account.

I still play D2 every now and again but mostly by myself to ignore the losers.

Nathan
http://www.MyPrayerSpot.com

nova-exarch · Apr 18, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miikka

sorry for going a bit off-topic here, but can someone quote the phrase in user agreement where it says buying gold/items with real life money is not allowed?

Here are the parts that apply to everything (in my rant anyway):

No selling accounts or even loaning/lending:

Quote:

Subject to the terms of this Agreement, NC Interactive grants to you, for your personal use only, a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Service, and a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Software in connection with the Service, without charge except for new Chapters which will be charged on a prepaid basis according to Section 5.

You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software or the Service (or any part thereof), including without limitation access keys; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service; or (d) otherwise use the Software or the Service except as expressly provided in this Agreement.

You could also relate that storage/upkeep/etc... of your character and all it's items = "the service" which means you can't do anything listed above.

Selling stuff on eBay falls under "otherwise transfer" :P

---

Quote:

(a) Content. You acknowledge that by using the Software and the Service you will have access to graphics, sound effects, music, animation-style video, content, layout, design, files, data, characters (and items and attributes associated with characters), game objects and text (collectively, ???Game Content???). NC Interactive does not pre-screen Game Content as a matter of policy. YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT NC INTERACTIVE HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY CONTENT (INCLUDING YOURS) IN WHOLE OR IN PART AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND.

They can do anything they want to any part of the game that they might choose to edit, delete or whatever.

---

Anyway... the EULA can be found here.

Miikka · Apr 18, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

ok, thanks alot

The Fenixxor · Apr 18, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiteful Soul

Yea we all know that....
What Im saying is I see the same 3 people
that I see every freakin time Im in ToA.
Buying these. How is it possible that you can
afford all this every freakin day/all day? I would
say I smell e-bay.

Dunno if this has been answered, but its called Speculation, You buy 5000 ecto's for 5.5k each, and sell them for 6k each, making 2500k profit along the way

Akhilleus · Apr 20, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by nova-exarch

Funny... no one mentioned the phrase "Intellectual Property" yet.

Anyway...

All self righteousness aside I have a few thoughts/points:

1. We live (well, most of us do and the game is located) in a CAPITALIST societies and yet people love to try and take some moral high road on the concept of buying gold/items = cheating. That is just too funny.

Usually it's touted as some moral issue about how it isn't fair to those that don't want to spend money on in game stuff and would rather earn it.

To those people I ask:

What about people that have more free time? They can play more and that's not fair to those of us with jobs, kids, school, etc...

What about people that can afford to spend more money on better computers or multiple accounts? Are they cheating by having that advantage? Is it fair?

Some people actually have more money than they do available time. Or should I say their time is worth more to them than spending umpty hours in a game to be able to compete.

Other people have more time than they do money... (Funny how that works, maybe if they were more busy they would have money? That's a whole different rant though.)

If spending more money to get more out of a game with less time commitment is not fair then their should also be a maximum amount of time you can play in a day because that is also an unfair advantage.

(sarcasm) Wow, imagine that... life… unfair?!?! (/sarcasm)

2. The main reasons that game companies generally don’t like the buying and selling of in game items is because: A. they do not profit from these sales, and B. they are a customer service NIGHTMARE (so and so took my gold but didn’t give me an item, etc..).

There is no economic balance in their minds. As a business it’s all about the bottom line. They could give a poop less about the “economy” of guild wars unless it was responsible for them loosing customers. (That's actually kind of funny since gear is such an afterthought in this game anyway.)

There are games that do not take issue with the buying and selling of their items outside of the game. Ultima Online is a prime example of such a game. They’ve been around for ever and you can buy and sell anything you want in or out of the game. Their economy isn't shot to hell. It's still going fairly strong.

3. The “Intellectual Property” BS that game companies love to tout as their reason for not allowing out of game trades is such a load of bull. It’s like Microsoft saying they own any idea or concept ever created on a Microsoft product. Or how about Craftsman saying they own every house built with their tools? (Yeah I know that one is far fetched...)

The only reason the concept stands up at all is because they include it in their EULA’s. That and no one has ever challenged the validity of the concept Intellectual Property. They tie IProperty in with the fact that they want to protect their code and all the reverse engineering stuff and make it seem like a good idea that players have zero rights in regards to code they are creating. I'm sure there are a ton of programers out there that work for free right?

Well, people have actually tried to challenge it and had valid cases in support of the fact that it was their creativity that made the character that was under dispute. However, without the kind of money it takes to hire lawyers to combat the likes of Sony and their legal teams there was not much those individuals could do.

It’s also a rahter new concept legal wise so there is not a whole lot of precedence. As far as I know there is no other sort of online service that stores created items on a server and claims ownership rights to anything contained on the server. Especially when you consider it is server space that a person has paid for the use of.

So, in the end, what it boils down to is:

They can do ANYTHING they want to ANY account they choose with NO REASON what-so-ever. It’s on their server, and the server is their property, and any data residing on the server is treated as their property.

This may be a rather pessimistic view but… It’s best to just not get attached to any character or assume you have any say what so ever as to any aspect of the character or the way the game plays.

Of course you can always choose not to buy the game or any expansions, or to return it if it’s within that timeframe.

---

In response to the original topic…

In 5+ years of EQ I never met anyone that was banned for “normal” buying and selling items. I did meet people with accounts banned from buying and selling accounts though (those were usually discovered when issues arose).

It would be simple to create the database routines needed to note sums over X amount with nothing in return. I'm not blowing smoke out of my rear end or guessing at anything. As a computer science major I had to write code to do such things. Number wise the process would be simple.

There would still need to be human involvement because that small percentage of itemless trades that actually were legit would cause them to lose many customers (see the bit about the bottom line above). There are plenty of legitimate reasons… friends, guildies, people with multiple accounts transferring money to twink a new character with, etc…

The human involvement is what isn’t cost effective. That leads me to not believe most people that claim to have been banned for a one time buying of gold or anything like that. The effort to catch people combined with the loss of a customer… I tend to doubt they ban that many people at all (especially in relation to the number of gold auctions out there).

I have to agree with the person before that mentioned that there must have been extenuating circumstances (as in the person was being a jerk or breaking other rules or taking advantage of exploits, etc…)

---

Wow, that got a whole lot longer than I intended.

i agree. which is why i have no problem with ebayers by themseleves.
its the elitist moronic attitude of in-game esuperiority that accompanies their otherwise lack of skill in the game that tends to piss me off.
wanna ebay? be my guest...but dont pretend you're hot shit because of it.

master_ranger_matt · Apr 20, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

ANet should eat everyone in augury international one. That's where bots and gold farmers hang out to sell their stuff.

robitusinz · Apr 20, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Easy near foolproof way of doing it...
First off, in most farming operations there's one account that farms the gold, one that holds the gold, and one that distributes the gold.

Horrid misassumption. The crux of the farming operation lies with the ability to create vast amounts of different accounts. Hence when you do deal with a farmer, their name is usually "Skzzlfx" or some junk like that. These are people who are either able to buy game accounts wholesale at a very low cost, or can outright steal them and acquire them for free. There are also those who can create some form of key generator, aka "haxxorz".

Once you have the account supply, everything else falls into place. You can purchase botting programs that will farm what you need (btw, it's not stupid people who do these kinds of operations...because YOU can't conceive a bot that could pretty much replace you in terms of playing the game doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who can), or if you're in a country where the local currency is lowered much less than the US Dollar, you can actually hire people to just play the game and farm all day.

If A.Net bans an account, they create another. No big deal. Their IPs are all masked using ridiculously common software, so no way to actually stop them from re-accessing the system, and A.Net is not going to pay for a team of security experts to act as counter-hackers in order to put a permanent stop to these operations, considering that there's no real pain to their pocketbooks. Banning farming accounts is really just a customer service issue....only reason they're banned is because the kiddies with 12 hours of playtime a day don't want any competition from casual folks who can afford to put some money into their hobby to make it more enjoyable. It really doesn't affect A.Net's gold purse at all. So, there you have it...the bans, in the end, will only hurt the playerbase, because the farmers will always exist and will always do their thing, and there will always be a market. A.Net should adopt Wal-Mart's customer service stance...that is, not have any at all.

Oh, and in regards to the DB queries...lol...take it from someone who actually works in IT. When you're dealing with a database of the size that MUST be used to run a userbase of over one million people, you don't want to do ANY queries against that DB that isn't going to somehow make you money. I've already gone over the fact that banning farmers isn't profitable whatsoever. Also, consider the supply of accounts that farmers have, and the myriad of transactions that they can have amongst themselves. It no longer becomes a matter of a simple query. Even if you created a monitoring daemon to sound alerts for large transactions, you would still need a person to go in there and arbitrate whether or not it was an illegal farmer's transaction.

Plus, you undermine the capabilities of the human mind to outwit a computer. Any piece of software that could be written to formulate some sort of artificial intelligence that would be able to discover such illegal transactions would HAVE to be based on some method of infallible logic. Given such immutable logic, it's only a matter of time until someone discovers a way to bypass said logic. So if you say, "Pick out all transactions of over X amount", then someone's just going to make a lot of smaller transactions. If you put in, "Pick out all repetitive transactions within X time", then you could just wait between transactions. You could hinder farmers, but you can never eliminate them, plus such simple logic as the ones I just exemplified would return huge amounts of false positives. Heck, just last night, I transferred about 10 different items to a buddy of mine in 6 or 7 different transactions.

Whew...I've been writing for a while. Anyway, the only feasible way to catch farmers is to have players report them, and since the only players who interact with them are those involved with them, they're not going to do that. I have to wonder if those press releases saying, "We've banned X accounts for selling gold" are even true. It's not like we'd ever be able to get any actual proof.

BTW, the e-Bay/gold-seller people aren't the ones who spend hours spamming the different areas. Those are just regular players who happen to farm a lot, or people who play the market. "Beating" the economy is a goal that a lot of players aspire to. The illegal gold-sellers aren't about to advertise in-game and draw attention to their accounts. One stupid move could get said account banned, along with tons of prospective profits.

robitusinz · Apr 20, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanS

In My Opinion

The reason they don't want people selling the money and/or items is because then it ruins the game for them and the people will not buy more accounts.

Example:
if you buy a new game and get the cheats for it the amount of time you will play it decreases. For some of us by quite a lot. So if they want the game to continue to sell and be talked about online and with friends then they must keep people from getting to many cheats ... ie ebay money or items.

Everquest and WOW want you to keep paying the monthly fee.

I think they would be smarter to allow it that way they could run the kids and people with too much money out of the game so we could enjoy playing with people who enjoy the game experience.

I am sorry to say to some that I do not want to BUY the greatest items I want to try and earn them. Just like in life you enjoy what you earn more. If I ever get to the point I am buying the MAX items without working hard to get the money then I will move on to the next game.

Just my 2 cents... I even refuse to play with someone who wants to powerlevel me. I left a guild because that is all they wanted to do.

I am also a family man and wish there was a way to have a clean server to be on... as I let my young kids play too. On their OWN account.

I still play D2 every now and again but mostly by myself to ignore the losers.

Nathan
http://www.MyPrayerSpot.com

When you play golf, do you insist that everyone rent their clubs at the pro shop, or are you ok with your buddy Mike bringing along his $2,000 professional set with the titanium driver?

The point I'm trying to make is that playing MMORPGs are like any other hobby, and thus those who choose to should be able to put money into their hobby to make their experience more enjoyable. It's up to THEM to dictate what's enjoyable for them....not you.

Say NO to communist gaming. Laissez-faire!

Dawgboy · Apr 20, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I think the majority of ebay buyers are people who only play occasionally. They don't have time for the endless grind of farming (oops-no grind required in game, anet says, my bad) and don't want to sit in towns endlessly spamming "WTS" when they find a decent weapon they don't need. They get tired of seeing everyone else with great armor or max weapons while they have crap armor and keep getting killed.

The only legit ways to make gold:
- play thru the game- monsters drop garbage and little gold
- farm- hours of doing the same thing over and over, plus you need a good character already to make it worthwhile, making it useless for beginners
- sell loot to other players- I despise doing this. Most people are idiots and spamming 'wts' brings out the worst of them

What's the fix? Upping gold drops by at least 10X would be a good start. It would be nice to actually just play the game and find yourself with enough gold to get that nice item when you make it to the next town.

I have about 650 hours in and only about 8k gold because I don't ebay, rarely farm, and NEVER sell except to npc's.

Apr 18, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31	#26
nova-exarch Academy Page Join Date: Feb 2006	Funny... no one mentioned the phrase "Intellectual Property" yet. Anyway... All self righteousness aside I have a few thoughts/points: 1. We live (well, most of us do and the game is located) in a CAPITALIST societies and yet people love to try and take some moral high road on the concept of buying gold/items = cheating. That is just too funny. Usually it's touted as some moral issue about how it isn't fair to those that don't want to spend money on in game stuff and would rather earn it. To those people I ask: What about people that have more free time? They can play more and that's not fair to those of us with jobs, kids, school, etc... What about people that can afford to spend more money on better computers or multiple accounts? Are they cheating by having that advantage? Is it fair? Some people actually have more money than they do available time. Or should I say their time is worth more to them than spending umpty hours in a game to be able to compete. Other people have more time than they do money... (Funny how that works, maybe if they were more busy they would have money? That's a whole different rant though.) If spending more money to get more out of a game with less time commitment is not fair then their should also be a maximum amount of time you can play in a day because that is also an unfair advantage. (sarcasm) Wow, imagine that... life… unfair?!?! (/sarcasm) 2. The main reasons that game companies generally don’t like the buying and selling of in game items is because: A. they do not profit from these sales, and B. they are a customer service NIGHTMARE (so and so took my gold but didn’t give me an item, etc..). There is no economic balance in their minds. As a business it’s all about the bottom line. They could give a poop less about the “economy” of guild wars unless it was responsible for them loosing customers. (That's actually kind of funny since gear is such an afterthought in this game anyway.) There are games that do not take issue with the buying and selling of their items outside of the game. Ultima Online is a prime example of such a game. They’ve been around for ever and you can buy and sell anything you want in or out of the game. Their economy isn't shot to hell. It's still going fairly strong. 3. The “Intellectual Property” BS that game companies love to tout as their reason for not allowing out of game trades is such a load of bull. It’s like Microsoft saying they own any idea or concept ever created on a Microsoft product. Or how about Craftsman saying they own every house built with their tools? (Yeah I know that one is far fetched...) The only reason the concept stands up at all is because they include it in their EULA’s. That and no one has ever challenged the validity of the concept Intellectual Property. They tie IProperty in with the fact that they want to protect their code and all the reverse engineering stuff and make it seem like a good idea that players have zero rights in regards to code they are creating. I'm sure there are a ton of programers out there that work for free right? Well, people have actually tried to challenge it and had valid cases in support of the fact that it was their creativity that made the character that was under dispute. However, without the kind of money it takes to hire lawyers to combat the likes of Sony and their legal teams there was not much those individuals could do. It’s also a rahter new concept legal wise so there is not a whole lot of precedence. As far as I know there is no other sort of online service that stores created items on a server and claims ownership rights to anything contained on the server. Especially when you consider it is server space that a person has paid for the use of. So, in the end, what it boils down to is: They can do ANYTHING they want to ANY account they choose with NO REASON what-so-ever. It’s on their server, and the server is their property, and any data residing on the server is treated as their property. This may be a rather pessimistic view but… It’s best to just not get attached to any character or assume you have any say what so ever as to any aspect of the character or the way the game plays. Of course you can always choose not to buy the game or any expansions, or to return it if it’s within that timeframe. --- In response to the original topic… In 5+ years of EQ I never met anyone that was banned for “normal” buying and selling items. I did meet people with accounts banned from buying and selling accounts though (those were usually discovered when issues arose). It would be simple to create the database routines needed to note sums over X amount with nothing in return. I'm not blowing smoke out of my rear end or guessing at anything. As a computer science major I had to write code to do such things. Number wise the process would be simple. There would still need to be human involvement because that small percentage of itemless trades that actually were legit would cause them to lose many customers (see the bit about the bottom line above). There are plenty of legitimate reasons… friends, guildies, people with multiple accounts transferring money to twink a new character with, etc… The human involvement is what isn’t cost effective. That leads me to not believe most people that claim to have been banned for a one time buying of gold or anything like that. The effort to catch people combined with the loss of a customer… I tend to doubt they ban that many people at all (especially in relation to the number of gold auctions out there). I have to agree with the person before that mentioned that there must have been extenuating circumstances (as in the person was being a jerk or breaking other rules or taking advantage of exploits, etc…) --- Wow, that got a whole lot longer than I intended. Last edited by nova-exarch; Apr 18, 2006 at 02:51 PM // 14:51..

Apr 18, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00	#32
NathanS Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2006 Profession: R/Mo	Sorry to add to this but wanted to put in my 2 cents In My Opinion The reason they don't want people selling the money and/or items is because then it ruins the game for them and the people will not buy more accounts. Example: if you buy a new game and get the cheats for it the amount of time you will play it decreases. For some of us by quite a lot. So if they want the game to continue to sell and be talked about online and with friends then they must keep people from getting to many cheats ... ie ebay money or items. Everquest and WOW want you to keep paying the monthly fee. I think they would be smarter to allow it that way they could run the kids and people with too much money out of the game so we could enjoy playing with people who enjoy the game experience. I am sorry to say to some that I do not want to BUY the greatest items I want to try and earn them. Just like in life you enjoy what you earn more. If I ever get to the point I am buying the MAX items without working hard to get the money then I will move on to the next game. Just my 2 cents... I even refuse to play with someone who wants to powerlevel me. I left a guild because that is all they wanted to do. I am also a family man and wish there was a way to have a clean server to be on... as I let my young kids play too. On their OWN account. I still play D2 every now and again but mostly by myself to ignore the losers. Nathan http://www.MyPrayerSpot.com

Apr 18, 2006, 10:33 AM // 10:33	#22
Akhilleus Forge Runner Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: If it aint expensive, it aint worth buyin'. Guild: Leading/Co-leading Bretheren Of Chaos [Dark] Profession: W/Mo	i think anet would be more absorbed with nailing the destributors though, than that bit of customer base that pays for stuff in the game.

Apr 18, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35	#23
Stealthy Trapper Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Guild: Knights Assassins [Kill] Profession: R/	Still there is no grasp on reality. Imo only the absolute obvious ones get caught. I am not sure of what it costs to buy a gp in this game but an easy scenario is: A-Net finds a account breaking the rules and bans the account. The banned one buys another account online, starts farming again and I am sure it doesn't take them long to build enough gold again to pay for the account. Unless A-Net could find them the very second they start farming I hardly find it worth while trying to catch and ban accounts. On the other hand A-Net bans the account because they know the banned one will buy another account and A-Net gets more royalties. Who really knows. I think Lord Mahal said it best.WTF cares it is breaking the rules, don't do it, and you will never know how they catch someone.

Apr 18, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03	#25
ShadowStorm Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: May 2005 Location: Take me where I cannot stand. Guild: The Better Part of Valor Profession: W/N	If you're going to buy gold off Ebay, the trick is to launder the money, just like you'd do in real life. Buy like 7 different accounts, then have 1 of those accounts set up a deal with the ebayer. When the Ebayer drops the gold off, have the first account divvy the gold up between 5 of the other accounts. Then have those 5 other accounts clean the money by investing in game items that are worth large amounts, like black dyes, runes, etc. Next, have those 5 other accounts drop the items off in the 7th account. Then the 7th account will transfer the items back into money and slowly feed that money into your real account at like 5k at a time. I doubt that A-Net could track that. You might get the first account banned, though. J/K Don't buy gold off Ebay. I just was reading these posts and this thought popped into my head. I had to share.

Apr 18, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04	#27
ophidian409 Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2005 Profession: W/R	I just want to tell you guys transfering a large amount of gold to another account with nothing return doesn't casusing banning, otherwise those fragging crystaline cheaters in LA would have been banned AUTOMATICALLY and even if people report them they are not getting banned. One likely condition for anet to ban ebayer is someone reports them with concrete evidence. For example you buy gold from ebayer and then you report him with screenshot then he must be banned.

Apr 18, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14	#28
tuperwho Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Tenacious Knights of Doom [TKD]	What about Anet simply performing chat log checks on random huge gold transfers. "Hey, I bought that money from you on E-bay... can you give it to me now?" kinda a dead giveaway if you ask me

Apr 18, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22	#29
Haggard Desert Nomad Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Urmston, Manchester, UK Guild: Greener Pastures [DVDF] Profession: W/Rt	Yeah I would never sell my gold on ebay for the main reason that you have to give your IGN, and anet may well have spies looking on ebay etc. Plus its wrong, and I love my money too much to sell for $8/100k to some bozo.

Apr 18, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28	#30
ophidian409 Krytan Explorer Join Date: Oct 2005 Profession: W/R	I don't think Anet would want to ban all the people who invlove in ebay, gold on ebay could raise interest of those who can't spend much time on the game. They don't actively look for ebayer, they just handle the report. This is what I believe, if you want to know the banning mechanism behind, those gold seller could give you the answer, becasue they can tell you if their accounts was banned and what actions they has taken.

Apr 18, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28	#31
Miikka Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Finland Profession: Mo/R	sorry for going a bit off-topic here, but can someone quote the phrase in user agreement where it says buying gold/items with real life money is not allowed?

Apr 18, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12	#34
Miikka Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Finland Profession: Mo/R	ok, thanks alot

Apr 20, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57	#37
master_ranger_matt Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah.... no im not mormon Guild: Radicals Against Tyrants [RAT] Profession: R/Me	ANet should eat everyone in augury international one. That's where bots and gold farmers hang out to sell their stuff.

Apr 20, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26	#40
Dawgboy Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ohio Guild: Antisocial Misfit	I think the majority of ebay buyers are people who only play occasionally. They don't have time for the endless grind of farming (oops-no grind required in game, anet says, my bad) and don't want to sit in towns endlessly spamming "WTS" when they find a decent weapon they don't need. They get tired of seeing everyone else with great armor or max weapons while they have crap armor and keep getting killed. The only legit ways to make gold: - play thru the game- monsters drop garbage and little gold - farm- hours of doing the same thing over and over, plus you need a good character already to make it worthwhile, making it useless for beginners - sell loot to other players- I despise doing this. Most people are idiots and spamming 'wts' brings out the worst of them What's the fix? Upping gold drops by at least 10X would be a good start. It would be nice to actually just play the game and find yourself with enough gold to get that nice item when you make it to the next town. I have about 650 hours in and only about 8k gold because I don't ebay, rarely farm, and NEVER sell except to npc's.